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Slayer_Allen
Incredibly Wordy Bastard
2081 Posts |
 Posted - 12/25/2003 : 19:56:49
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I just c/ped this, but here you go.
quote:
What are the issues? Having a 64-bit chip doesn't automatically make a computer faster. The theoretical limit may be enormous, but the ability of subsystems such as the bus to move data into and out of memory can produce a practical limit. For example, Apple says the 64-bit G5 should eventually support 4 TB of data, but can only handle 8 GB today.
The faster chip also requires that the operating system and applications that run on top of it be recompiled for 64-bit processing. The Itanium does allow 32-bit applications to run unchanged, but with a hit on performance. In fact, 32-bit apps may actually run slower on Itanium than they would on a 32-bit Intel Xeon. AMD took a more evolutionary approach with its Opteron processor which extends a 32-bit design to handle 64-bit operations.
This means that unmodified 32-bit applications don't suffer the same performance penalty as the Itanium.
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www.tribalevo.com
|E|-^Slayer- |
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Krusty
Incredibly Wordy Bastard
1158 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2003 : 20:04:10
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Seeing as your system has to cost you between $400 and $600, I can safely say there is NO WAY IN HELL you are going to be able to build a system that can play games for 4 years. You can probably build a system that can play the games coming out next year (doom3, half life 2, etc) but you really can't expect much more than that. Games tend to require high end hardware.
Lets take my system for example. I built it about 2.5 years ago. Motherboard had a kt266a chipset and used pc2100 ram (for a 266Mhz bus speed). Processor was a 1.4Ghz Athlon Thunderbird. Video card was a regular geforce3. Along with that, I got a 60 gig hard drive, 512MB ram, a sound blaster live, some speakers, a refurbished 19" monitor and your basic keyboard and mouse stuff. I wound up spending somewhere around $2000 on it. The video card alone cost me $350.
Since then, I have done a few upgrades. I have an nforce2 motherboard that I got a nice deal on, I RMA'd my ram to get some pc2700, and I upgraded to an Athlon XP 1600+ that I overclock to about a 2300+.
I will likely barely be able to play half life 2 and doom 3.
My next post will be all my recommended hardware to fit your budget as closely as possible. Lemme go do some pricing. Be back in a few minutes.
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Slayer_Allen
Incredibly Wordy Bastard
2081 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2003 : 20:10:40
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Nah, half-life is supposed to be scaleable to play on anything. Just with really ****ty graphics.
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www.tribalevo.com
|E|-^Slayer- |
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Andrid
Wordy Bastard
692 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2003 : 20:14:44
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i am getting something with 2.8 ghz, so hopefully it will be able to last for a least a couple of years. right now my system stands at (just naming the main components). my dad might help a bit mroe with the money so i might end up going a bit over my initial range.
hard drive:MAXTOR 60GB 7200RPM EIDE
processer: pentium 4 2.8 ghz 800mhz FSB
motherboard:GA-8S648FX-L SiS 648FX chipset
http://www.giga-byte.com/MotherBoard/Products/Products_Spec_GA-8S648FX-L.htm
memory: pc3200--probably 3 things of 512 mb
case:Aluminum Mid Tower Case with ATX 550w Power Supply
the rest of the stuff will be generic, or cost less than 10 bucks.
will the hard drive be good enough?
i have already checked compbatibility between the processor, motherboard, and graphics card. from the site next to the motherboard, will pc3200 memory work?
thanks for all your help.
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absu-f***ing-lutly |
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Krusty
Incredibly Wordy Bastard
1158 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2003 : 20:47:53
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motherboard: Shuttle AN35N Ultra. Nforce2 motherboard but has no serial ATA or IDE RAID. Sells at newegg for $66. Not the greatest thing out there but is one of the newest things out there and sells for a rather fair price.
processor: Athlon XP Barton 2500+. Sells for $90 at newegg. Not the fastest processor but it is the same design type as AMDs fastest processors. If you feel a little gutsy, this particular processor has a tendency to overclock very well. With the proper cooling, you can get the processor to run at the same speed as AMDs $300 processors. If you feel less gutsy, you can go for a 2700+ which sells for $127 or a 2800+ which sells for $144.
memory: 2 sticks of 256MB buffalo pc3200 memory. model #DD4002-S256. Sells for $36 each. More ram would be better in the future, but I don't know if your current budget would allow for it. If you did go for 1GB of ram, I'd suggest 2 sticks of 512MB buffalo pc3200 memory. Model #DD4002-512 sells for $72 each. I am recommending you use 2 sticks of ram instead of 1 because you can run it in dual channel mode which will essentially double your memory throughput (actually make it like 60% faster). You could always take a small hit for now and get 1 stick of 512MB and upgrade by putting in another stick of 512MB later.
As for the hard drive, I'd say look for the cheapest hard drive you can find that is at least 60GB, 7200RPM and has 8MB cache. An 80GB Western Digital special edition or maxtor drive would do nicely. The Western Digital WD800JB 80GB drive sells for $74.
Ok, so far we're up to $302 and you still need your case and power supply, your video card, your sound card, your optical drives (cd, dvd), and all your stuff that goes outside of the case such as keyboard, mouse, monitor, etc.
You should be able to snag a decent case and power supply for about $40 or so at Frys. Don't go for anything less than a 350W power supply. I'd recommend going with an Antec, Sparkle, or Enermax power supply if you come across it but you should still be relatively safe with a different brand. Pick up a case that comes with a power supply in it to save a little cash.
I'll assume you can salvage a cdrom from a previous system. If not, you could find something for pretty cheap. Same goes with keyboard, mouse, and monitor. If you don't have a decent monitor, you can pick up a 17" monitor for under $100.
Last thing left is the video card and that could cost you a pretty penny. Anywhere between $100 and $500. If you honestly expect to be able play games that come out 3 years from now, you are going to have to spend $400. You should be pretty safe to play games for a good long while with a card that runs between $150 and $200 though. A radeon 9600XT 128MB should be decent enough for now and runs for $155. But you really should try to spend as much as you can and go for at least a 9700 pro 128Mb for $209. A 9800 pro 256MB is what you would like to be getting but they sell for $350.
Oh, gonna go open more presents now, so I'll stop now. Have fun!
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Andrid
Wordy Bastard
692 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2003 : 22:50:56
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i decided that i will not go 64 bit...actually my dad decided...he doesn think games will ever use that much power...him and his text rpgs. lol
krusty as for the processor i will stay with pentium i think. amd looks like it will only be working on it's 64 bit processors seriously now, and I want to be able to upgrade. because of that i'm looking for a mobo that will hold a bit more than the pentium's 3.2 ghz...something more like 3.5-3.6 . i'm willing to pay a bit more for the mother board for that.
for the graphics card i think i'll stay with the radeon 9600 pro 256 mb....i don't want to spend 500 bucks on a graphics card!! i'm looking to spend more like 100-150 bucks.
edit: i found a [RADEON 9800SE 128mb DDR TV out 256-bit memory support DirectX 9.0 & OpenGL 2.0] for $137
OR
[Sapphire ATI RADEON 9600XT 128MB DDR VGA/DVI/TV-out 8X AGP]
OR
[ATI All In Wonder Radeon 9000 64MB TV/Vivo Video Capture/edit AIW w/all Cables &1yr warranty OEM]
OR
[ATI RADEON R96-D3G 9600 PRO 256MB DDR DVI+CRT+TV 8X AGP]
those $50 mean a lot, because i talked to my dad about $100 and it was hard to convince him, so should i or should i not try to go for the extra 50 for one of those?
note: right now i stand at [ATI Radeon 9600 256MB DDR AGP8X DVI+CRT+TVO] for $50 dollars less than any of those
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absu-f***ing-lutly
Edited by - Andrid on 12/26/2003 00:12:53
Edited by - Andrid on 12/26/2003 00:32:25 |
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Krusty
Incredibly Wordy Bastard
1158 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 01:26:21
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1. Intel processors, as I said before, are a bit ahead of the game at the moment because of the 800Mhz fsb. Good decision there for your system not getting outdated as soon. I chose the AMD route because it would save you some money.
2. Don't expect an easy upgrade when moving to a 64 bit platform. In fact, don't even expect to be upgrading. You will more likely need to buy a whole new computer. The 64 bit processors will likely be in a different package (as is with the Opteron processors which are AMDs 64 bit processors that are currently on the market) which will mean you will need an entirely different motherboard. Also, by the time you upgrade to a 64 bit platform, PCI Express will likely be a wide spread standard. PCI Express would be the replacement for current PCI slots as well as current AGP slots. This means that, no matter how much you pay for your video card, you won't be able to put it in your next system. Additionally, any other hardware that would occupy the PCI slots (such as modems and sound cards --not hard drives and cdroms) might have to be replaced as well because they may not be compatible with a 64 bit OS.
3. Motherboards will not say that they support a processor higher than 3.2Ghz because 3.2Ghz does not exist. Anything that supports a 3.2Ghz, 800Mhz fsb, hyperthreaded processor will likely support any other pentium 4 800Mhz fsb hyperthreaded processors.
4. As long as I'm mentioning hyperthreading, last year, while having a conversation with the man that invented hyperthreading, he mentioned that Intel is having a terrible time getting the Itanium processors to even get close to competing with their P4 processors. I wouldn't hold my breath for Intels 64 bit solution to come out any time soon. When it does, I imagine it would be more of a workstation or server processor than a gamer processor.
5. pc3200 ram will be fine. The buffalo memory I recommended above is still my recommendation. It is a good performing brand that comes with a lifetime warranty and a low price tag to boot. Buying something faster than pc3200 would mean you are expecting to use that RAM in a system designed for somethign faster than pc3200. Currently, neither motherboards nor processors support ram speeds beyond pc3200.
6. I haven't had much personal experience with the different types of video cards, but I would definiately say not to go for the all in wonder radeon 9000. You pay for extra features, not extra performance, for the all in wonder cards. The XT cards are the newest versions that support Directx 9.0a. I'd say go for the Sapphire Radeon 9600XT 128Mb. That would be your best choice.
7. I haven't had much experience with the newer Intel boards either. When planning out a system for my father, I think I concluded that I liked the Abit IS7 or IC7. Don't remember which at the moment. Those boards may be a bit hefty for your needs though. If you would like a good low cost, high performance, upgrading potential motherboard, I can do a little searching to see what everyone else likes and get back to you.
8. I don't see you needing more than 1GB of RAM. 2 sticks of 512 should be more than you will ever need.
9. www.newegg.com. In case you missed that, I'll say http://www.newegg.com . And in case you don't understand, Newegg is better than Frys and you don't have to drive to Fountain Valley. I still recommend a trip to Frys to pick up a case though. Newegg charges shipping on cases.
10. If you want someone to convince your dad to shell out a bit of extra money, you can always have him give me a call. I'm even in the 949 area code. You can also bug me on AIM when ordering parts and I can provide links directly to the items you should be ordering.
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Andrid
Wordy Bastard
692 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 12:23:10
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KRUSTY I LOVE U!!! lol
quote:
3. Motherboards will not say that they support a processor higher than 3.2Ghz because 3.2Ghz does not exist. Anything that supports a 3.2Ghz, 800Mhz fsb, hyperthreaded processor will likely support any other pentium 4 800Mhz fsb hyperthreaded processors.
ok then that means i'll be able to upgrade later if i go with the motherboard i chose.
as for the memory, i found a generic brand for 50 dollars a stick. is the buffalo memory worth the extra 20 per stick?
i was using priceline for everything, but i guess i'll try newegg.com too.
EDIT:pricewatch has a [Aluminum Mid Tower Case with ATX 550w Power] for $51, so i think i'll go with that unless fries/micro center has it better
EDIT#2:for the cooling, will the processors fan, and 1-2 fans on the outside be enough, or should i get more cooling?
I would rather stay with fans because i know how to work them, but i will go with something else if needed.
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absu-f***ing-lutly
Edited by - Andrid on 12/26/2003 12:29:32
Edited by - Andrid on 12/26/2003 12:33:00 |
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Andrid
Wordy Bastard
692 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 13:46:40
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EDIT: woah....i wastede my 555th post on this...w/e
newegg.com is great krusty. thanks for the idea.
right now:
--WESTERN DIGITAL 40GB 7200RPM IDE HARD DRIVE, Model WD400BB, OEM DRIVE ONLY--
Specifications:
Capacity: 40GB
Average Seek Time: 8.9ms
Buffer: 2MB
Rotational Speed: 7200 RPM
Interface: EIDE ULTRA ATA100
Features: Quiet Drive technology
Manufacturer Warranty: 1 year
Remark: OEM DRIVE ONLY
$54
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-140-118&catalog=14&manufactory=BROWSE&depa=1
--ECS P4X400 Motherboard for Intel Socket 478 CPU, Model "L4VXA2"--
Supported CPU: Socket 478 Intel® Pentium 4 Processors
Chipset: VIA Apollo P4X400 + VT8235
FSB: 533/400MHz
RAM: 3x DIMM for DDR400(conditional)/333/266 Max 3GB
IDE: 2x UltraDMA 133/100/66/33
Slots: 1x AGP 4X/8X, 5x PCI, 1x CNR
Ports: 2xPS2,1xLPT,1xCOM,1xLAN,6xUSB2.0(Rear 4),Audio Ports
Onboard Audio: VIA VT1612A AC97 Audio
Onboard LAN: VIA VT6103 10/100M Fast Ethernet
Form Factor: ATX
price:$48
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-135-134&catalog=280&depa=1
--Pentium 2.8GHz 800MHz FSB w/512K Socket 478 (oem)--
Price: $192.00
http://www.upgrade-solution.com/detail.cfm?show=yes&PID=746&add=yes
--Sapphire ATI RADEON 9600XT 128MB DDR VGA/DVI/TV-out 8X AGP--
Memory/Effective Speed:128MB DDR/600MHz
BUS: AGP 1X/2X/4X/8X
Ports: VGA Out(15 Pin D-Sub)+TV-Out(S-Video Out)+DVI Connector
Support 3D API: Microsoft®DirectX®9,OpenGL™2.0
Package Included:1 Cable,PowerDVD,Driver CD
Max Resolution@32bit Color: 2048x1536@85Hz
http://us-depot.com/frshatioemra.html
price: $155
memory: either generic or buffalo...2 sticks of 512, or 1 stick now one stick later
that is equal to 449 not counting shipping or memory
i have some of the other stuff from my old computer, so i wouldn't need to buy everything.
one of the old computers i am looking to sell has a messed up floppy drive, and a messed up disk drive, so i'm looking to sell the working parts. anyone know of a good place to sell them? *note*the parts are very old, as in pc100 ram old. the other old computer is in good shape, currently running linux. looking to sell that one also.
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absu-****ing-lutly
Edited by - Andrid on 12/26/2003 13:50:22 |
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Krusty
Incredibly Wordy Bastard
1158 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 14:08:13
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The one thing I would always recommend NOT buying generic is memory. Cheap memeory just has way too many problems and it is worth paying a bit extra for better memory. I chose the buffalo because it is a new type of memory out on the market so it is still very well priced. It also practically alredy has a cult following among overclockers because it is such a great performer. If you want to go cheap, forget the stuff you found and get the buffalo. If you want to go expenensive, get Crucial, Corsair, or Mushkin.
Newegg is my strong recommendation because they stock everything you could ever possibly want and because they are a very good retailer. If you just go with the cheapest vendor on pricewatch or priceline, you stand a high chance of getting a busted product or no product at all and not being able to return it or even contact them.
What motherboard are you looking at at the moment?
For a computer case, I still say it would be a good idea to at least check out frys. Everybody on the internet charges shipping and that really brings the prices up on something as large as a case. Also, it is better to get a 400W branded power supply (such as Antec, Enermax, or Sparkle) than a cheap 550W power supply. One of the major causes of system instability in computers is a power supply that does not supply clean enough power. Buying no-name power supplies drastically increases your chances of coming across this problem. I believe Frys has cases by Enermax and Antec (that come with Enermax and Antec supplies) for under $50 and you don't have to pay shipping.
As for the cooling, I ALWAYS recommend buying a 3rd party heatsink and fan for your processor.
In the following link, a lower number is better:
http://www.overclockers.com/articles373/p4sum.asp
The Volcano 7+ can be purchased at Frys for $20-$30 and a relatively good heatsink. You can also adjust the fan speed to your liking as well. You Should also pick up some Arctic Silver 5 or Arctic Silver Caramique as well. You can then remove the cheap thermal interface on the bottom of the heatsink and use the Arctic Silver instead. It will help to keep your cpu cooler.
As for other fans, I recommend having at least one 80mm fan on the front of your case blowing air into the case and one 80mm fan on the back of the case blowing air out of the case. Go to http://www.nexfan.com to get good deals on fans. There's almost always an 80mm fan on sale that pushes about 35cfm (air flow) and makes about 25 dbA of noise. You can also pick up a tube of Arctic Silver 5 for $7 while you're there.
Oh, and I'm going on a trip to Mammoth tomorrow through new years eve so you'd best figure out any other questions for me today.
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JesterUSMC
Super Noobie! ;)
164 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 15:01:20
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I have ALWAYS bought generic memory and NEVER had a problem.
Lifes a gamble.
Newegg is a great site, so is www.tigerdirect.com .
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The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. |
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Krusty
Incredibly Wordy Bastard
1158 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 19:01:01
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Setup looks good except for the motherboard. The motherboard has 2 problems:
1. It's an ECS motherboard. ECS is the Pinto of motherboards. Avoid ECS.
2. It does not support the processor you chose. That motherboard only supports 400 and 533Mhz bus speeds. You picked an 800Mhz bus speed processor.
Since I am now begining my packing, I may not be able to post again tonight, so I'll refer you to my best hardware source, http://www.ocforums.com . Register there and hop onto the Intel motherboards section and ask them about a good, low priced motherboard that supports 800fsb and hyperthreading.
Also, see if you can get a slightly larger hard drive. My 60GB desktop hard drive is begining to get a bit cramped. Newer games and software suck up a pretty big chunk of space. I still hold on my western digital 80GB special edition hard drive. It's a bit more expensive, but you get twice the space and faster access times with the 8MB buffer instead of 2MB.
quote:
--ECS P4X400 Motherboard for Intel Socket 478 CPU, Model "L4VXA2"--
Supported CPU: Socket 478 Intel® Pentium 4 Processors
Chipset: VIA Apollo P4X400 + VT8235
FSB: 533/400MHz
RAM: 3x DIMM for DDR400(conditional)/333/266 Max 3GB
IDE: 2x UltraDMA 133/100/66/33
Slots: 1x AGP 4X/8X, 5x PCI, 1x CNR
Ports: 2xPS2,1xLPT,1xCOM,1xLAN,6xUSB2.0(Rear 4),Audio Ports
Onboard Audio: VIA VT1612A AC97 Audio
Onboard LAN: VIA VT6103 10/100M Fast Ethernet
Form Factor: ATX
price:$48
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-135-134&catalog=280&depa=1
I marked 2 things in bold up there ^^. The FSB one needs to have 800 in there. The AGP one needs to have 8x. In this case, it does have 8x, so that part is good. Also, make sure it has onboard audio since you don't want to have to spend money on a sound card. Another good feature to be looking for is Serial ATA (SATA). That is the newest hard drive standard and it would be beneficial to get a motherboard that has serial ATA if you ever felt the need to upgrade the hard drive.
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Andrid
Wordy Bastard
692 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 23:13:12
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thanks krusty. i might go there. i'm not ordering the parts for another little while though, so no need to worry about time.
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absu-****ing-lutly |
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Andrid
Wordy Bastard
692 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 18:01:59
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looking at the new prices, with out using pricewatch, i don't think i'll be able to even come close to my pricerange without using price watch. so i have a couple of questions:
will changing the memory to 2100 do any difference?
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absu-****ing-lutly |
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Krusty
Incredibly Wordy Bastard
1158 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 21:06:29
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pc2100 is 266Mhz RAM. You are looking for a pentium 4 processor with the 800Mhz front side bus. The front side bus is how the memory and cpu communicate with eachother. Memory runs in dual channel mode at 400Mhz (2 sticks of pc3200) resulting in 800Mhz memory speed. Using 266Mhz ram will result in a 533Mhz memory speed and you will have to set a memory divider to get the memory to be able to run at a slower speed while the bus runs at a faster speed.
In other words, you will severely cripple your system. The memory won't be at 800Mhz and the memory divider will further reduce memory performance.
If you want to cut a couple of corners to get a better price, skip the Intel system and go AMD with the Shuttle AN35N motherboard. you'll save a pretty penny going for the lower priced motherboard and lower priced processor while not really losing too much in performance.
Also, for good price checks, do newegg. They generally have some of the lowest prices listed on pricewatch.
Edited by - Krusty on 01/01/2004 21:09:53 |
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Andrid
Wordy Bastard
692 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 21:34:20
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then what is the cheapest memory i can get?
also do you think that AMD will go for more than 3200? because if they will then i will go with them.
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absu-****ing-lutly |
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Krusty
Incredibly Wordy Bastard
1158 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 23:50:52
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3200 is the fastest speed currently supported. I can't predict the future, so I can't tell you what the next fsb speed will be.
I still think Buffalo is the best compromise between low priced memory and good performing memory. You can also get kingston which is known for being a decent and low priced brand.
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na85
Incredibly Wordy Bastard
1404 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2004 : 12:11:21
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I remember when PC100 was considered fast
They call me Sodium |
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aggie
Tribes Geek
439 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2004 : 23:01:21
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I remember when 8 megs was $200.00 US.
"I was successful because you believed in me"
U.S. Grant to A. Lincoln
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PisnNapalm
Moderator
1508 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2004 : 12:31:30
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I remember when TV's were black and white.
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new computer!
