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Slayer_Allen
Incredibly Wordy Bastard
2081 Posts |
 Posted - 01/25/2004 : 11:29:01
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THat is not what I am arguing at all. I completely agree with you on that point.
All I am saying is that I feel we CAN condemn Hitler. Or at least the Third Reich.
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UnderOath
Wordy Bastard
838 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 13:27:25
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That last reply of mine was not directed to you slayer, but to andrid. Sorry for the confusion.
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Slayer_Allen
Incredibly Wordy Bastard
2081 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 13:30:07
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Well, I have never actually heard of the 5 million gay/disabled people myself. Do you have a source you can quote on that Andrid?
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UnderOath
Wordy Bastard
838 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 13:50:07
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Of the 6 million people killed, it included Jews, Gays, Disabled, homeless, upon many others. You may have heard that Hitler had a thing about blonde hair blue eyes, well that was for the most part true. A lot of people not fitting that criteria were killed.
I am not so sure that figure of 5 million gay and disabled people is accurate, but I don know that they were included in the 6+ million.
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Andrid
Wordy Bastard
692 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 14:01:02
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no, 6 million jews + 5 million that were differnt from hittler=11 million. actually i thought that the extra 5 million were gay and disabled but i was wrong. here's a good site that talks about it.
http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/non-jewishvictims.htm
http://www.remember.org/5mill.htm
2 should be enough for you, and if you want more just go to google and type in "11 million" + holocaust
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absu-****ing-lutly |
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Andrid
Wordy Bastard
692 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 14:07:34
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quote:
quote:
Where do you get your facts MoW? Everything I've ever heard was that 6 million were killed.
professors over in Jerusalem i use to go to school over theere and we learned the true purpose of what happened their and we have stuided and collected data over in the concentration camps from europe and have been studying for years in history about this
hahaha....google again...
holocaust + "6 million"=23,300
holocaust + "11 million"=4370
holocaust + "1,631,348 "=none--0
holocaust + "1.6 million"=1870=all that i checked (first page) about number of children that survived, number of jews killed in certain place, or some other thing like that.
proffesors in jerusalem could have been antisematic (hate jews) who just want to get propaganda. if you can find a webpage with your magic number, post it here.
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absu-****ing-lutly |
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UnderOath
Wordy Bastard
838 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 14:12:29
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quote:
2)I just can't stand the last paragraph. it's like your defending his actions. i know that a twist on things is nice, but this is something that just doesn't make any sense with first world countries ethical laws about hitler
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IF there were no morals and ethics to live by, how would murder and hatred and any other "evil" thing be considered "evil". If there is no standard of right and wrong, how can something be right or wrong? I basically said hitler's morals were different from mine, and perhaps yours. If his morals considered murder to be acceptable, then it wasnt wrong, to him, but it still is to you based on your morals.
I know this sounds twisted and what not, but think about it, if someone has no foundation of right and wrong, how can we say Hitler's actions were wrong when we areselves dont truly know what right and wrong is?
Where did morals come from? What does determine right and wrong? Why is murder wrong?
There has to be some kind of foundation of moralistic values to determine what right and wrong is, where do yours come from? If hitler had no foundation of morals, how is he to determine what right and wrong is?
Thanks for Supporting your first argument of the 11 million, I find that fascinating.
I would still like your response to your second point that I replied to.
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Andrid
Wordy Bastard
692 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 14:25:14
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damn...i knew i shouldn't have gotten so deep....
we're using our moral system, so it's wrong. and if you think that it was right then you have a serious issue. if you say that argument, then you are also saying that each person should use their own moral law. look at what that did in the era that was pre what ever his name's was first laws. his laws might seem a bit extreme to us, but it put everybody's books on the same page. so now they could function well.
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absu-****ing-lutly |
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UnderOath
Wordy Bastard
838 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 14:40:37
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Thats the surface argument that I have heard a lot, I am trying to get you to get deeper then that.
What makes our moral system right? how can we determine ours is right? What makes it right? Where did our morals come from? Why do we hold the belief that they are true?
And I dont believe what Hitler did was right, but thats my opinion based off my morals.
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Andrid
Wordy Bastard
692 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 15:09:05
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quote:
What makes our moral system right? how can we determine ours is right? What makes it right? Where did our morals come from? Why do we hold the belief that they are true?
it isn't right. it's what we think that's right. it came from what we think is right. and it's true because we think it's right.
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absu-****ing-lutly |
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UnderOath
Wordy Bastard
838 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 16:34:32
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quote:
quote:
What makes our moral system right? how can we determine ours is right? What makes it right? Where did our morals come from? Why do we hold the belief that they are true?
it isn't right. it's what we think that's right. it came from what we think is right. and it's true because we think it's right.
By your answer, Hitler was right becuase thats what he thought was right. Safe to say your basically agreeing with my theory?
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Slayer_Allen
Incredibly Wordy Bastard
2081 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 16:39:48
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Heh, I think you have a motive to try and get someone to say something.
Because I can name at least ONE institute that would tell us the difference between right and wrong.
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UnderOath
Wordy Bastard
838 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 16:42:32
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I know my foundation of my morals....I was interested where his foundation is.
If someone doesnt know why they have the morals they do and where the foundation is, how can that person believe their morals are truth?
In my opinion, my morals are truth because of my beliefs, but someone else can believe their morals are truth and have completely different beliefs, but what I want to know, is why you guys think your morals are truth, what is your foundation as to why you think what right and wrong is?
How can someone accept truth from opinion?
Hitler's foundation was different from ours and so he had completely different morals from most of us, but he had a foundation, and so he believed his morals were truth. If someone lacks foundation, they lack truth, but they may still have morals, not of truth though, just of opinion.
Edited by - UnderOath on 01/25/2004 16:45:10
Edited by - UnderOath on 01/25/2004 16:47:34 |
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Krusty
Incredibly Wordy Bastard
1158 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 16:55:13
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I just realized something. What is the point of arguing the point that the opinions of hitler are his truths when the same arguement says that my opinions on hitler and on his morals are my own truths. If it's ok by hitlers opinion to do what he did, then it's ok by my opinion to completely debunk any arguement that can ever be made by claiming that it is not my truth.
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UnderOath
Wordy Bastard
838 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 17:03:03
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Thats completely your own opinion of Hitler. But if Hitler were still alive, he'd do the same to you.
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Slayer_Allen
Incredibly Wordy Bastard
2081 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 17:12:26
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I again disagree. Who says that foundation makes truth? If you have foundation, then you jsut have a bunch of other people who also agree with your morals. There were some quotes about people agreeing earlier in the thread. It doesn't mean your morals are "true", just that if you are wrong you will have some company.
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UnderOath
Wordy Bastard
838 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 17:18:13
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I think slayer is the only one looking at this with the depth I intended, which is completely understandable.
The ability to look past the horrific devastation Hitler imposed on many people is often impossible, and is a stumbling block to looking at the mans mind without any prejudice.
What makes you right and hitler wrong? What makes hitler right and you wrong? One thing. Opinion.
I quoted myself in my own essay (only because i have previously written what I quoted), that quote was "An argument based entirely on opinion will never cease due to lack of factual foundation, no truth can prevail from opinion."
This raises another question, Does truth exist? After all, whose truth is right and wrong, that too is a matter of opinion.
I believe my truth to be correct based on evidence I have seen, but it was my discretion whether or not to believe it as truth or not, and its merely my opinion the evidence I have seen proves its truth, to others the evidence is not substantial enough.
In my opinion, truth doesnt exist, only a matter of opinion on what truth is exists.
Is that last statement true? No. It's merely an opinion on what is believed to be true.
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Master of world
Official Forum *****
26 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 17:40:31
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quote:
quote:
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Where do you get your facts MoW? Everything I've ever heard was that 6 million were killed.
professors over in Jerusalem i use to go to school over theere and we learned the true purpose of what happened their and we have stuided and collected data over in the concentration camps from europe and have been studying for years in history about this
hahaha....google again...
holocaust + "6 million"=23,300
holocaust + "11 million"=4370
holocaust + "1,631,348 "=none--0
holocaust + "1.6 million"=1870=all that i checked (first page) about number of children that survived, number of jews killed in certain place, or some other thing like that.
proffesors in jerusalem could have been antisematic (hate jews) who just want to get propaganda. if you can find a webpage with your magic number, post it here.
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absu-****ing-lutly
we dont have a website concerning this issue secondly this is based between me and professors and my classmates
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Slayer_Allen
Incredibly Wordy Bastard
2081 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 17:42:30
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[Warning, random tangent following]
Which is all just silly circle talk anyway. These points could be argued all day, since we can come to no conclusion where no truth exists. Well, we can certainly come to a conclusion, but trying to impress the "true" idea that truth can or cannot exist on other people who do not believe in truth is just silly. :P
Hell, for all I know reality is just a figment of my imagination, but then what is imagination? And what is reality? It's all the same tin of fish, and all the intellectual discussion in the world can't prove a truth out of things that don't exist.
I think our entire discussion was retarded by the fact that nobody attempted to define truth, or existance. What is truth? Can we define it if it does not exist? Does it exist but perhaps just beyond us? I think trying to morally justify something based on "true" "morals" is silly when we don't even know what any of these things are.
I'll agree that maybe all these things exist on some level that we cannot fathom. That's why call myself an Agnostic.
[/Random Tangent]
Yes, I went on a tangent. I'll make a note of that at the start. :P
Was I mocking? Maybe just a little.
Do I have a definite foundation for my morals? I couldn't say. Psychologists have the nature/nurture arguement. I am sure it is one of the two. :o
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Edited by - Slayer_Allen on 01/25/2004 17:43:57 |
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UnderOath
Wordy Bastard
838 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 17:55:44
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quote:
"An argument based entirely on opinion will never cease due to lack of factual foundation, no truth can prevail from opinion."
We can argue truth, morals, right, wrong, religion, genocide, hott chicks, whether altoids are the strongest mints, but when it comes down to it, its all a matter of opinion. Some things can be true to some but not others.
We can go in a round about circle arguing our opinions, but when in reality, we will reach no conclusion because we all possess a different point of view on every single situation.
I would like to thank everyone who participated in this thread, my purpose was to further my thinking through challenging my mind.
quote:
The human mind cannot expand its knowledge and depth without being challenged with knowledge and depth.
The first night Krusty and I discussed the issue, I immediately began another discussion with a close friend of mine. I was fascinated with how each of us, very similar in many aspects, took such different views of this man.
I decided to bring the discussion here to challenge myself, and I thank you guys for expanding my knowledge through this discussion.
Slayer, Thanks for the imput. I respect any man who respects me, so I thank you.
I have received all I wanted out of this discussion and I thank all of you for it.
Lister, Thanks for letting it run.
Edited by - UnderOath on 01/25/2004 17:56:20 |
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Hitler...
Topic Locked
